MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
We wanted to hear a law enforcement perspective on President Trump's public safety initiative in D.C., so we've called Harry Dunn. He joined the U.S. Capitol Police in 2008. He served there until 2023 when he retired. He was on duty protecting the U.S. Capitol when it was attacked on January 6 of 2021, and he's the recipient of both a Congressional Gold Medal and Presidential Citizens Medal, and he's with us now. Harry Dunn, welcome. Thanks so much for joining us once again.
HARRY DUNN: Hi. Good morning. Thanks for having me.
MARTIN: So one of the reasons we called you is that you, like, you know, many other police officers - particularly in big departments - are trained in multiple specialties. You were a certified crisis negotiation and crisis intervention officer for the U.S. Capitol Police. You had to deal with all kinds of people, like dignitaries, as well - you know, tourists. People just coming through. In your estimation, are National Guard troops equipped to patrol a city where aspects of the job could call for, you know, discernment, de-escalation, things like that?
DUNN: Well, to answer your question just very bluntly, no, they're not. And that's not to diminish anything that they do or what they're prepared for, what they're capable of. I mean, when I was a Capitol police officer for over 15 years, we had officers who were police officers that weren't trained in certain things that I was trained in. And they had other programs that they were trained in that I may have not been trained in, even though we all had police officer training. But this approach that the president is taking, it's - he's taking a hammer when it may require a screwdriver to be very precise.
And just going back to the last part of the interview that you - that we just heard on the radio, I dealt with several homeless people at the United States Capitol 'cause it's surrounded by about three shelters within a walking distance. And, yes, there's not a lot of beds. And a lot of the complaints that a lot of the homeless individuals we talked to, they said that they didn't feel safe in those shelters. So it wasn't just about getting off the street. They actually felt safer on the street than they did in some of those shelters.
MARTIN: Speaking of that, you were there on January 6, protecting lawmakers and staff members when rioters stormed the U.S. Capitol. What goes through your mind when you see the president deploying troops and federal officers now when not only is there no riot; in fact, the data says crime in D.C. is trending down?
DUNN: Yeah. I'm glad that you brought up the data point because the Homeland Act that he's invoked, the data doesn't support - what's happening on the street doesn't support that. The president should take credit for the crackdown in crime and reducing it over 25% from this time last year. At the press conference on - Director Kash Patel said that the murder rate is down, and it's trending towards its historically low levels. So it doesn't make sense. If it's down, then why this bringing in the National Guard? It doesn't make sense. Now...
MARTIN: I think he's talking about - I just want to clarify that you're talking about the Home Rule Act.
DUNN: Home Rule Act. I'm sorry.
MARTIN: OK.
DUNN: I'm sorry.
MARTIN: So, yeah, one of - the president suggests that part of what's frustrating him is what he's described as a lack of respect for law enforcement. At the press conference on Monday, he put it this way. Here is what he said.
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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: They love to spit in the face of the police as the police are standing up there in uniform. They're standing, and they're screaming at them an inch away from their face. And then they start spitting in their face. And I said, you tell them, you spit, and we hit.
MARTIN: And he went on to say that they can now, quote, "do whatever the hell they want." And the reason I raise that, I ask, again, you were there on January 6. Didn't you experience some of that? And so I wonder...
DUNN: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...You know, what do you think that the president didn't deploy the National Guard then? At least he was implored to do so and didn't for quite some time.
DUNN: Yeah. We absolutely experienced that. It was very frustrating, too, when we were out there with the other officers just waiting for help, waiting for backup. And not even to get into the political aspects of it, he had the ability to send us help, but he blamed it on the speaker of the House at the time. But then he just sent the National Guard just on a whim here on a random Monday when he decides to do it. It's very unfortunate.
And the whole thing about doing whatever the hell you want to do, as he put it, that's very problematic for police. It gives bad apples cover to do whatever they want. And it's just very - it's not helpful towards police relationships in the community.
MARTIN: I was going to ask you about that. What do you mean by you say it gives bad apples cover to do whatever they want? What do you mean by that?
DUNN: Well, people have always talked about police misconduct, police abuse, police oversight. And, literally, he's taking the reins off of them to do whatever the hell they want, even if that means violating somebody's rights, violating rules. Just threw the rule book out of the window, and that's not good.
MARTIN: You think it sends a mixed message.
DUNN: Absolutely. Well, no, no, no, I don't think it sends a mixed message. I think it sends a very clear message that Donald Trump wants to do whatever you want to do as long as you're doing the agenda that he wants to do, which is an effective good policing.
MARTIN: So, you know, the head of the D.C. Police Union actually praised this effort. In a statement, the union leader's Gregg Pemberton said that adding National Guard forces will be, quote, "a critical stopgap" to address what he called, quote, "out-of-control crime." Why do you think you have such a different view of things?
DUNN: Well, first of all, that individual doesn't even live in Washington, D.C. But secondly, these individuals - the National Guard - have not been trained on how to do with community relations. This is what I meant about bringing a hammer when it may - the problem may require a screwdriver. Nobody's denying that, hey, everybody wants to see crime - everybody wants to - crime reduced. Everybody wants to feel safe when they go out in their communities, when they go on a walk with their family. Everybody wants to feel safe. And, yes, if they were bringing attention to make sure that that is the end goal, then we're all for it. But the way we're going about - that this president is going about doing it, that's not the right way.
MARTIN: Well, in fairness, you don't live in Washington, either. You ran for Congress in Maryland. I think people may remember that. So does - having said that, do you have a sense of - I know you have a lot of friends on MPD, Metropolitan Police force.
DUNN: Sure.
MARTIN: Do you have a sense of - I'm not asking you to speak for them, but I am wondering if you have a sense of what they think about this?
DUNN: Well, it was interesting when he talked about the morale is high, officers are praising this. I heard the actual opposite of that. Officers are going to be working. As you know, this act goes for 30 days, and then it requires the approval of Congress. But is this Congress going to actually tell this president no? So it could be ongoing forever. They're not having any days off. Their raise is still being held up by the government. So these officers, their conditions, they're not happy - the ones that I've spoken to. There may be some that are enjoying this moment, but I think this is going to be - do more harm than good.
MARTIN: OK. That's Harry Dunn. He was a member of the U.S. Capitol Police when the Capitol was attacked on January 6 of 2021, and he's received many honors, as we have said. Officer Dunn, thanks so much for talking to us once again.
DUNN: Thank you. Have a good day.
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