AILSA CHANG, HOST:
New York's already overburdened immigration courts have at least seven fewer judges today. That's because the Trump administration fired them. The firings are seen as part of an ongoing effort by the White House to overhaul the U.S. immigration system while ramping up deportations. We're joined now by Jeremiah Johnson, an immigration judge who was himself fired just over a week ago. He is also the executive vice president of the National Association of Immigration Judges. Welcome, Judge Johnson.
JEREMIAH JOHNSON: Thank you for having me.
CHANG: So I just want to start with what happened to you personally. How were you notified of your firing? And were you provided any explanation for why you're being let go?
JOHNSON: I was actually in a meeting with my ACIJ, my supervisor immigration judge, when a legal assistant had walked by and told us that judges were being fired. I wasn't told of who at that exact time, or wasn't myself, but then I ended up down in my chambers later on, turned on my email and found out that I was one of the judges who had been fired. So I was notified via email. And shortly thereafter, without even the ability to print that letter, I was locked out of the system.
CHANG: Oh, wow. And did that email explain why you were being fired?
JOHNSON: Pursuant to Article 2 of the Constitution, the attorney general had decided to remove me from my position. That was the only explanation given. And no thank you, either.
CHANG: Well, NPR recently analyzed the professional background of some 70 judges who were fired through early November, and we found that judges who only had work experience defending immigrants were fired at a much greater rate than those who only had experience working for the Department of Homeland Security. I'm curious, what do you make of that data?
JOHNSON: It appears to me that the immigration judges who are being fired have experience in immigration law. They're professional judges, experts in immigration law and policy. There were hiring trends in the past that favored Department of Homeland Security prosecutors and others over those with removal defense. So maybe the timing of the hiring may had something to do with that, but I do know, when I was fired on the day I was fired, colleagues of mine also had a background in the Department of Homeland Security. So you see this among all judges, professional judges, different backgrounds, and so that trend gives me pause, but I'm not certain that's the reason because the attorney general gave no reason. Just indicated that it was in her decision to remove.
CHANG: Well, we should note that in response to that NPR reporting I just cited, the Department of Justice told us, quote, "it does not target or prioritize immigration judges for any personnel decision one way or the other based on prior experience." So let me ask you, does that square with what you're seeing, what you've just described?
JOHNSON: What I think you're seeing is that immigration judges with experience are being targeted, are being fired.
CHANG: Experience as to either immigration defense or immigration prosecution?
JOHNSON: No, as immigration judges themselves. First, you saw people being fired who had two years' probation on the bench. Now you're seeing other judges who have experience in the law. And the same day that we were fired, you have ads promoted by the Department of Homeland Security for deportation judges. So what I think you're seeing is an attack on judges themselves, the court system themselves.
CHANG: I was just going to ask you what you think the cost of these departures will be, because there were about 700 immigration judges at the start of this year, and since then, about 140 of them have been fired or have resigned, according to the immigration judges union and NPR reporting. Is the immigration court system at a breaking point?
JOHNSON: Not at a breaking point. I would say a warning point. I do remain optimistic in the future because it is in the law that removal proceedings shall be conducted by immigration judges. Immigration judges are still on the bench. But I think Congress needs to be asking those points to the department. I think the American taxpayer should also be asking those questions. There are currently a very large backlog of cases that need to be heard.
CHANG: Yes, millions of cases, so...
JOHNSON: Yes.
CHANG: ...I mean, what are some possible solutions that could help get through that backlog?
JOHNSON: Creating an independent immigration court, hiring more, investing in immigration courts. Right now, you're seeing a divestiture almost, hiring temporary immigration judges or reallocating military personnel. While the NIJ (ph) and immigration judges appreciate the help, we want to make sure that those people are qualified and receive the proper training and experience. So I think there is a way forward, and that's with investment in the immigration courts, and we're not seeing that right now.
CHANG: But if I may push back, I mean, given this massive backlog of cases, why isn't the Trump administration's approach - this approach of firing judges and hiring new ones - worth trying?
JOHNSON: Well, they're not hiring. We saw a number of temporary immigration judges, and the administration also then has lowered the standards for hiring those immigration judges. There has not been a replacement of the number of immigration judges. So I don't think you see the investment in immigration courts. It's not just this administration. It has been a long-going neglect of the system that needs to be righted.
CHANG: That is Jeremiah Johnson, the executive vice president of the National Association of Immigration Judges. Thank you very much for joining us today.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
CHANG: And in a statement to NPR, the agency within DOJ that oversees immigration judges says that if a judge shows, quote, "systematic bias," then the agency can, quote, "take action to preserve the integrity of its system." Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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